Debate Transcript: Europe is failing its Muslims

Transcript of complete recording of Intelligence Squared debate “Europe is failing it’s Muslims” held at Cadogan Hall, London on Tuesday 23rd February 2010 

View the full video of this debate here.

ZEINAB BADAWI

Welcome to Cadogan Hall, here in Central London, for this Intelligence Squared debate coming to you in association with the British Council. The motion, ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’. Well, although we’re focusing on Muslims in Europe, this is a topic which is relevant right throughout the world. And we have a panel of some of the most provocative and stimulating speakers on this subject and there’ll be plenty of disagreement, and we’ll be hearing later from our audience. 

In fact, our audience were polled as they were coming in, to see where they stand on the motion – and I’ll let you know the result of that a little later in the programme – but after they’ve heard all our speakers make their presentations, and put a few questions to them, we’re going to ask them to vote again to see if they’ve changed their minds. And in fact, in the past we’ve had some pretty dramatic swings, so who knows what will happen today? 

So, our panel for the motion, Tariq Ramadan and Petra Stienen, and arguing against the motion, Douglas Murray and Flemming Rose – that’s our panel, welcome to you all. 

Alright, so let’s hear our panellists, make their opening statements and when they run out of time I’m going to be tapping impatiently on my glass. So, first for the motion ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’ Tariq Ramadan. Now, he’s professor of Contemporary Islamic studies at Oxford University, he’s been taught by some of the best Muslims scholars in the world but he’s also very active at the grass roots level, he is president of the European Muslim Network. Tariq Ramadan, your time starts now. 

TARIQ RAMADAN

Thank you, thank you for the invitation and, as we don’t have much time let me go straight to some of the main points supporting this motion ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’. Let me start by saying that we are living in a difficult situation. If you listen to what is said in the European countries the perception is very bad. Seventy-five per cent, for example, of French people are associating Islam with violence, the perception is that Islam is a problem and that Muslims are creating problems, they are not really perceived at home in Europe. 

And then we have lots of debate, every day we have a new debate, a new controversy, every single European society has its own debates, its own controversies around the Muslim presence. So what is happening, and this is where I want to tackle the issue, ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’ at five different levels. 

First one, is the way Europe is defining itself, the self perception, the perception of the self. When it comes, for example, with the situation of the, the European societies today as if when you are speaking about the societies of today, we are not understanding and the current discourse and the, the, general discourse is that Muslims are not European citizens, they are not perceived. So, Europe has changed, and the European societies have changed, the situation is completely different. 

We have millions of Muslims that are already Europeans and this is the situation. When we speak about Turkey, for example, it’s as if we are speaking about people who are coming from outside, not acknowledging the fact that we already have Europeans that are Muslims in our country. Not only this, on the geographical dimension it’s as if when we speak about Europe, we speak about Western Europe. Eastern Europe is not there, the Muslims who are Europeans for generations and centuries are not perceived as Europeans. The Bosnian people are not Europeans; it’s as if because they are Muslims they are less Europeans. 

So these are two main points, at the level of the definition. Now, if we come to the historical level, and here again we have a problem. Not only, in the long run, not only when it comes to speaking about the contribution of Muslim philosophers, Muslim scientists to the legacy of this continent it’s as if the philosophers are not Europeans because they are too Muslim. So, when you go back to the text books, nothing is said or not enough is said about this great contribution of the Muslim scholars, scientists, philosophers that are not only translators but they were commenting and they gave something to the European identity. 

Not only this, now, if you come to the more recent history, when we speak about economic, contribution, the fathers and the mothers of the people who are now Europeans, who came to help the countries to be built after the second World War or in between the two World Wars. So this is also something which is missing in our self perception. And when it comes to history, let me add to this something which is also important when it comes to the political and the socioeconomic level, the third level is also very important. Our politicians, very often they speak about their fellow citizens as if they don’t know who are these new citizens who are Muslim and they are living with them. It’s as if these new citizens are problematic because of their religion but not citizens as to their status. And this is where we have this confusion, we speak about culture, we Islamise the socioeconomic problems. Muslims in our societies are facing unemployment, discrimination and racism and it’s not because they are Muslims, it’s because they are facing class discrimination, segregation and wrong social policies. So this is where this confusion is not helping to understand the sense of belonging to the country. If you think that you have a problem with somebody because of their religion and not because they are citizens dealing with the job market, with unemployment and the same violence and they are the same victims. So this is something which is helping populist parties to win, because when you culturalise the socioeconomic problems, when you Islamise the socioeconomic problems, this is why the populists are very quick to use, to instrumentalise the fear of the people to get voters supporting them. And this is what is happening today. 

At the cultural level, it’s as if the new visibility of the Muslims is just showing that they are, they don’t want to integrate – in fact it’s exactly the opposite. The opposite, they are visible, millions are visible. It means that they are at home, so when you have mosques, when you have organisations, it’s not because you don’t want to integrate, it’s exactly the opposite. You feel at home, you build your mosques and even this it’s also a very important point in the reality. So, it’s the opposite. When it comes to food, curry and couscous that’s fine, when it comes to money, Islamic banking that’s fine. But when it comes to dresses, when it comes to colour, when it comes to something which is different, it’s not fine. So we are selective in our integration. Money and food, welcome. Colours and dresses, no. 

So, last point. Last point, when it comes to the media, it’s as if here we are only dealing with problems and we are dealing with these controversies every day, we are talking about violence, the minarets, the headscarf. All the problems, not talking about what is done at the grass roots level, the positive actions of the Muslims, the presence. Millions are silent and are constructive and contributing to the reality of our country – this is not good. So, what we have today is very bad perception, and it’s an ‘us versus them’ mindset that we are creating, ‘the Muslims are undermining the very essence of our culture’, ‘they are outsiders within our society, perceived as the other’, and Islam and Muslims are perceived as problem. 

Now, and this is where we are failing, we are nurturing the perception that Islam is alien to Europe, that Muslims are not Europeans. Islam is a European religion and Muslims are citizens. And if you go from all these controversies showing that we are failing and what is happening at the grass roots level, many things are very positive. At the local level, Muslims are Europeans, they are citizens and they are building. And let me say something which is important. While we are talking about this at the grass roots level the Muslims are understanding the West and Europe much better than before. They are understanding, and rediscovering their religion much better than before and they also are coming with new answers. This is completely neglected in the current political discussion, in the religious discussion and I would say yes, I am supporting this motion because today we are failing but it’s a question of time, because what I see at the grass roots level is much more positive than what is happening today in our political discourse, media coverage. Things are very important behind, this is what I call the silent revolution, but we need time and it will be coming. Thank you. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Well, a very passionate and fluent opening there to our debate. Against the motion, is Douglas Murray. He is the director of the Centre for Social Cohesion here in Britain, which tries to promote integration between ethnic minorities and the wider population and he specialises in radicalisation. So, Douglas Murray, your time starts now. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Thank you, thank you very much. And thank you to the British Council, Intelligence Squared and everyone who’s helped to put this very important debate together. I’ve only got six minutes, which is barely time to get my trousers off as they say. But, I’ll have a go! 

Firstly, Tariq says that Europeans associate Islam with violence. There is some truth in that, there is also a very obvious reason for that. Which is that Islam is associated with violence. It was not Buddhists who flew planes into the twin towers. It was not Hindus or Jews that blew up the London Underground and buses a few years ago. And that simple fact has to be acknowledged if you’re even going to start a dialogue. 

Now, what is happening, ladies and gentlemen, it’s not a pantomime. What’s happening here tonight is that you are, I’m sure, all a very open minded, liberal, Western audience, and I know a little of them which is liberal, open minded, Western audiences tend to be hugely masochistic. They like to think that every problem of the world is theirs. If an earthquake happens somewhere in the world, it’s ‘What did we do to cause it?’ Every single thing that happens in the world comes back onto our shoulders. Maybe, ladies and gentlemen, just consider this, maybe, this isn’t Europe’s failing. Maybe this is someone else’s problem, to begin with. Maybe it’s a problem we now have here and that we have to deal with here, yes. But that it was not Europe that started this problem. 

Now the problem that all masochists have, as some of you may know, is, what happens when they meet a sadist? And in Muslim leaders across Europe at the moment that’s exactly what Europeans have met. I’d argue that Europe has done not too badly considering the circumstances. In the middle of the last century, there was an almost negligible Muslim presence in Europe. At the turn of the twenty first, in Western Europe alone, there were fifteen to seventeen million Muslims. That’s a very fast migration, ladies and gentlemen – one of the fastest in human history. And no society would find it easy to deal with that kind of migration. As it happens, European societies, Western European societies have, I think, dealt with this much better than some would. Certainly, Muslims coming to live in Britain and in Western Europe, enjoy more rights and better rights, among them freedom of worship, than they do in any Islamic country in the Earth, here, today. 

They also receive all the benefits, thank you, all the benefits, all the benefits of the welfare state. Sure there are things that people have got wrong, but it’s not a bad sign I would suggest, that people who come to this country with nothing, receive, in this country, National Health Service, receive welfare payments. Let me give you two examples quickly. Raed Hlayhel, a Danish Imam, one of the two incidentally that started the worldwide protest against my co-panellist, arrived in Denmark in the 1990s, he arrived there from Lebanon because his son was disabled, and he knew that Denmark would support his son. Denmark did. How did he repay it? By organising worldwide riots, lootings, murders and burnings. However, Denmark paid for his son. What happens in Britain? We have jokers, I hope that most of you’ll agree with this, like Anjem Choudary, of the now, finally banned group Al-Muhajiroun, Islam4UK, who for years has been sitting here, on the welfare state, taking money from tax payers in this country, supporting his children, his wife and anyone else, whilst plotting and hating the people of this country. We have been paying people here, who hate us. I’d have thought that was an example of some considerable generosity, I’d say suicidal generosity, but there we go. 

We’ve also had, from the Muslim communities in Europe a terrible failure of leadership. It’s striking to me that the Muslim Council of Britain, for instance, in this country, the last leader of that organisation said that death was too good for Salman Rushdie for the crime of writing a work of fiction. The current head of the Muslim Council of Britain, who I think if not here tonight, is certainly coming to dinner afterwards I see, seems not to be able to condemn stoning in all circumstances, for all time. I don’t know why even people paid by the government many millions of pounds can’t do this. Last year, when the Gaza operation began, paid people, including the heads of the Quilliam Foundation, a government funded organisation, signed a letter, co-signed a letter to the British Government saying that unless the British Government distances itself from Israel and American foreign policy, they couldn’t promise that other members of their religion mightn’t step outside the political process. What other organisation, what other religion blackmails the British state like this? Does any other minority in Europe behave like this? No, ladies and gentlemen, none. 

Therefore, we do have a problem, we have a problem when the failures of Islam throughout the world, the failures of all Islamic societies, come here into Britain. Their intolerance of freedom of conscience, their intolerance of apostates, their intolerance of freedom of expression and freedom of speech, their intolerance of minorities, other religious minorities, sexual minorities, their intolerance of gays, their dislike and distrust of half of the population; women. And many, many other things. 

And the call, what’s more, for a parallel legal system within Britain and European societies. This is monstrous, no other group behaves like this, asks for parallel laws. This is a fundamental problem, and it’s one we’re going to have to deal with. It’s a problem between a society – Western Europe – that believes that laws are based on reason, and Islam that believes that they are based on revelation. Between these two ideas, I’m not sure there is very much compromise for Europe. We can’t grant that Mohammed heard some voices, or heard voices some of the time and institute any of the things he thought he heard into law. It cannot be done. 

One person I think agreed with that, no more. Finally, since, my bell is up almost, I just point out, and I think this cannot not be said here tonight, but if we were discussing any other minority in Europe we would, first of all, not have the security that unfortunately has had to go along with tonight’s event, and it would be unlikely that my co-debater on my side would once again, only a few weeks ago, have had a plot uncovered in Chicago to murder him. I know Flemming is too modest to mention this himself, but this is not nothing, ladies and gentlemen. It is not nothing that the critics of Islam and the critics of fundamentalism within Islam find themselves in this situation, and it isn’t rare, sadly. 

I would argue for one more point if I may. Which is that it is not Europe that has let down its Muslims, but the Muslims of Europe that have let down Europe. This is not solely something which we have to say we can never reconcile, of course we can reconcile it. But we need to be honest about it, we need to be frank about it and we cannot avoid things just because they are unpleasant. And if there were one thing I would wish Muslims in Europe could learn today, as fast as possible, it would be this – and I’m sure Flemming will pick up on this – that you have no right in this society not to be offended, you have no right to say that because you don’t like something you can commit violence or you would like someone stopped or censored, you have no right to have more hate laws, or hate crime laws, or hate speech laws just to defend Islam. 

You have to realise, the Muslims of Europe have to realise, that a society in which even your deepest feelings can be trodden upon is the only society worth living in. And the sooner we can learn that, the sooner that Islam can learn that within Europe, the better. It is not Europe that has failed its Muslims, it is Islam that has failed Europe. I’d argue Islam has failed its Muslims. Thank you. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Well, you certainly stirred things up a bit there didn’t you, Douglas Murray, thank you very much indeed. Okay, well let me invite some comments from the floor and wait ‘til the microphone gets to you and, if relevant, please do say who you are and your organisation. But just before we do that, let me just say Douglas Murray that you mentioned I think Iqbal Sacranie from the Muslim Council of Britain, saying he condones stonings-- 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

No, Abdul Bari. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Oh Abdul Bari you said, yes. But I think that it probably was taken a bit out of context, what you said there. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

I don’t think so. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Well, he’s not here to answer for himself so I just wanted to-- 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Well he is coming to dinner so... you can ask him then 

ZEINAB BADAWI

We just wanted, I just wanted to qualify that so, anyway-- 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

No, no, you’re wrong by the way, you’re wrong 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Well, just wanted to make sure that a quotation taken out of context there about-- 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

It’s not out of context. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Anyway, let’s see what our people on the floor have to say. Alright, let’s go, the lady there, yeah. 

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE

Hi, my name is (unclear) Hassan, I just had a question to Mr, well a few questions to Mr Murray. I don’t think it’s the Muslims of Europe that have failed Europe. I think it’s exactly the opposite. One of the things you said, it was, yeah, it was actually a few Muslims, crazy Muslims I think, who sort of flew the plane into those buildings. But, was Hitler a Muslim by any chance because I’m not sure that Muslims had anything to do with the Holocaust? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. 

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE

The other, the other question (unclear) 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Keep it brief. Yep, keep it brief. Thank you. Gentleman there. 

MAN IN AUDIENCE

Hi, erm, I’m third generation British and without this countries willingness to accept persecuted minorities from other countries, I wouldn’t be here today. My family worked hard, and I know it’s not fashionable to say so but I feel proud of this country and the people who are willing to die for this country. I’ve always voted for mainstream parties so I’m not some member of some lunatic fringe. Listening to Anjem Choudary, who was planning the anti-war march through Wootten Bassett, as we know, on BBC’s analysis programme last week, he stated that his British passport was to him merely a travel document, with no other significance at all. Indeed, his primary and only loyalty, he said, was to his religion. And that made me-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

You’re talking about Anjem Choudary though, from the Muhajiroun group who Douglas Murray referred to? Yeah, ok 

MAN IN AUDIENCE

Exactly. That made me think about the question we’re being asked about today, and whether it’s the right question at all. Shouldn’t the question be ‘Are Europe’s Muslims, who share Choudary’s view, and I stress that, who share Choudary’s view, failing Europe’? Do what I-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright, okay 

MAN IN AUDIENCE

Just finishing off very quickly, do what I regard as the tremendous benefits of being, living in a liberal, rich Western democracy-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Yeah, there’s no point repeating what Douglas Murray has just said. I think you’ve made your point. ‘Cause I’d like to get round the audience. Yep, the lady there. 

WOMAN 2 IN AUDIENCE

(Unclear) very quick points really. You said that no other minority, brings with it, sorry if I don’t get the words exactly right, but terrorism and planes into buildings, was it something along those lines? We do have minorities in Europe who’re associated with terrorism. We have ETA, BNP have also been associated with terrorism, we have the IRA. Why is it that you see these as different? Is it maybe because you see Muslims as external and a threat, whereas, you see these people as internal? And then isn’t that part of the problem that Dr Ramadan was delineating? In that we’re not seen as integral parts of Europe and, for my case, as a convert, and someone who’s been English for more than I don’t know how many generations, you know, I don’t really appreciate being seen as someone who’s come from outside. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright, OK. Please keep your comments brief. 

Gentleman there. 

MAN 2 IN AUDIENCE

(Unclear) physical theatre. In 2009, the Centre for Muslim Studies, along with the Gallup poll, interviewed five hundred British Muslims. Over 99.5% of those British Muslims found homosexuality, homosexual acts unacceptable. Interestingly enough, today the government was voting on families, schools and sex education. What was interesting is that the government has given concession to Muslims, as well as other religious organisations. So, it seems to be in fact, this government here, is prepared to give religious organisations including Muslims, rights over lots of gay men and women. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. Gentleman up there. 

MAN 3 IN AUDIENCE

(Unclear) just want to say to Douglas Murray. You talked about how Europe has dealt with this ‘problem’. What your basically have alluded to, in the six minutes that you had, are that Muslims are a problem. And you’re from the organisation called the Centre for Social Cohesion, and it’s worrying to have you talk about these things in this manner. And I just want to say that it’s worrying that a spokesperson for an organisation which is seemingly, supposedly for social cohesion is coming up here and saying that we have dealt with this ‘problem’ of Muslims. You are, and you talked about the suicidal generosity that you have to Muslims, what you are basically alluding to is that Muslims are external to Europe. And it’s worrying that you see it that way, because then that means there is no chance of there being any solution to any problem, or Muslims being seen as a part of Europe and being seen as European citizens. Thank you. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. Gentleman there. 

MAN 4 IN AUDIENCE

(Unclear) Brunel University. Ah, I just want to pick up something that Douglas Murray said. I’m just really interested in the way his language keeps slipping. It’s ‘Islam’ that flies into twin, into the Twin Towers, it’s not Muslims. It’s ‘Islam’ that is a problem, not particular Muslims. When you generalise in this respect, when you assume that there is a kind of a essential identity that all Muslims, or essential view that all Muslims share, you are in fact relegating en bloc a very diverse, very heterogeneous set of communities in Europe. Finally, I’d like to ask you, when you talk about the Muslims that are the problem, which Muslims are you talking about? Because you keep slipping in your language, to focus on the radicals, the extremists. Maybe that’s because that’s what you’re interested in. But there’s another whole set of Muslims out there who are not like that. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, any-any more points from the floor? Yep, young chap there. 

MAN 5 IN AUDIENCE

My name is Miles Kilefa from Muslim Leaders of the Future, I just wanted to say about the terrorism point. Like, within the past two weeks, an American person flew his private plane into a building. Did anyone hear about that? Wasn’t that terrorism? The things we heard, a couple of years back about the Jack the Ripper in Ipswich. Isn’t that terrorism? The things we hear in America about the people who shoot the kids in schools. Isn’t that terrorism as well? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright, okay. We’ve got your point. Is there anybody who wants to put any points, they’ve all been very one-sided towards Douglas Murray. I only want to take comments now if they are in response to what Tariq Ramadan said. Anybody on that? Okay, gentlem-no, just here, right, right up here. And then come to you. To Tariq Ramadan please. 

MAN 6 IN AUDIENCE

Hm. My name’s Geoffrey Brown. I just wanted to pick up on the fact that you could interpret some of the comments that have been said for the other side as well. There was talk about the way in which minority groups within the Muslim community have been sort of stigmatised or at fault, or whatever it might be. But in many ways that could be seen as Europe failing its Muslims, because it’s not providing the support for women or gay people in that particular area. What is Europe doing to support those minorities within the Muslim community? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Minorities within minorities. Okay, we’ll mull that one out, over. Okay, just a quick clutch there. Yeah. 

MAN 7 IN AUDIENCE

David Conway from Civitas. In order to oppose the motion, it is not necessary at all to make out that Islam is a problem at all. It is sufficient to point out that Europe is not failing its Muslims, that this debate is taking place tonight, and is being televised by the BBC World Service, that Tariq Ramadan holds a chair at Oxford University, and has held chairs elsewhere in Europe. Europe is not failing its Muslims, I put it to you, because of these very facts. That you are being welcomed, that you are being integrated, that you are being respected. You are not a problem. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. Let’s just take. There’ll be. There’ll be another opportunity after we’ve heard our next two speakers to take more questions from the floor. But just a brief response at the moment. Tariq Ramadan, just a brief response to what you heard, some of the comments on the floor there. I mean, that last one ‘You’re a success, you’re at Oxford University, so clearly’ he’s saying ‘there’s no problem’. 

TARIQ RAMADAN

Just very quickly, three points. The first point once again, because this was said, but when you are saying to the Muslims you have to learn to be offended. You may have to learn that the great majority of European Muslims were not reacting, and the small minority that were shouting and demonstrating in Muslim majority countries. You may have to learn that in the Netherlands, for example, after the movie ‘Fitna’, the Muslims got the reaction which was a reaction of wisdom, in fact, even acknowledged by Geert Wilders himself. And this was also the case in Copenhagen for three months after this was instrumentalised by the mistake of the Prime Minister’s refusing to welcome the Ambassadors. So don’t take one situation and not deal with the great majority of the Muslims who are accepting, reacting in a very wise way. 

The second point, which is quite important. Please, I am not representing what is happening at the grass roots level now. We have a mixed picture. Yes, there are things that are happening, and I’m the first one to say that what the Muslims are experiencing as to freedom, freedom of expression, status citizens, we are better in Europe than in many Muslim majority countries. But it’s not because it’s better, that it’s enough, we still have to work to improve the situation. This is what we are saying. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

A brief response from you Douglas Murray on the fact that you’re focusing on, perhaps, a handful of extremists, somebody said. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

(Unclear) Tariq Ramadan said that there were several months of peacefulness in Denmark before all the violence broke out, which strikes me as a not great thing in itself. But, actually, if you look at the polling that’s been done by all sorts of polling organisations, including Pew, about Muslims in Denmark, opinions about the cartoons for instance. A majority wanted, in a number of polls certainly, Flemming knows this better than I, agreed that they wanted, laws to stop such things happening again – wanted the criminalisation of people drawing cartoons. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

We’re going to come to that because actually-- 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

This is pathetic. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

You know what, Flemming Rose hasn’t spoken yet, so really it’s just slightly out of sync. But could you, rather than responding to what Tariq Ramadan said, just pick up one of the two points that we had from our audience, which was, you’re focusing very much on a sort of small fringe of extremists. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Well the first thing, as I say, there is it obviously isn’t such a small fringe, and if you look at the polls across Europe, of the percentages which do condone such things as believing that people should not be allowed to draw cartoons. And so, they are very worrying, they are larger than a small minority. There is a small minority of people who carry out acts of violence, but sadly a much larger number of people who believe that such acts of violence can be condoned or can be ever justified. That’s a terrible situation to be in. Germany had a poll, just recently, with a third, I think it was, of German Muslims saying killing in the name of their religion could be justified. This is very worrying. And a third of any minority that believed that would be a problem. 

And somebody asked at the back, by the way about this, it’s not my fault the motion is phrased the way it is, I’m sure Flemming will get on to this, but the motion talks about Muslims and Europe – we are essentialising Muslims tonight because the motion does so. We’re also going to essentialise Europe tonight because the motion does so. I don’t like talking about Europe as if it’s one block, god knows it’s different enough from here to the other side of the Channel. And the person who talked about Hitler, I have to say I couldn’t quite get what point she was making, but it does strike me as being offensive to people in this country, to claim in a city which people left to fight fascism that a reaction that is perfectly legitimate and is itself an anti-fascist movement. An opposition to fundamentalist Islam is anti-fascist because-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

I think she was just pick up on your-- 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

--Fundamentalist Islam is fascist. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Yeah, but I think she was only picking up one of your opening comments that Islam is a violent religion and that Jews, Christians and Buddhists, you said, haven’t really been associated with violence. So maybe that’s the point she was trying to make there. But anyway, Douglas Murray, thank you very much. We must move on with our next speaker, so Douglas Murray thank you. 

Now, arguing for the motion, is Petra Stienen. She’s a former Dutch diplomat, who has worked in the Arab world, and indeed she has written about her experiences there. She’s a very active human rights campaigner, with a particular interest, amongst other things, in women’s rights. So, Petra Stienen, the floor is yours. 

PETRA STIENEN

Well I’m from the country Douglas calls the canary in the coalmine. 

Some people feel that in my country, Islamisation has already succeeded. I think the question tonight is, whether we in Europe are actually capable of looking beyond the colour of religion. 

A month ago, I was in a similar hall, sitting in the back, listening to Jesse Jackson, who spoke about the dreams of Martin Luther King and how, he felt Barack Obama had achieved these dreams. I was particularly touched when he spoke about how silence is betrayal. And I realised, that it’s no longer that we can claim that we’re innocent bystanders, that we can say that we don’t know what’s happening around us. 

I grew up in a small town in a southern part of the Netherlands in a Catholic environment. As an eight year old girl, the colour of religion was pink, the pink of my dress of my first communion. I had no idea what was happening around me. So, I didn’t see, while we were celebrating, all my friends, you know the dress and the watch and the money we got as presents, my friend Monique, protestant, was sitting in the back of the church. The priest and the teacher told her that that was her place. I didn’t say anything. I probably wasn’t aware. My father didn’t say anything either, except after dinner, he told me, in very plain words – this is how this world is Petra, she’s of a different religion, she’s not one of us. 

This is how the Netherlands was in the seventies of the last century. I had to stay in my own group, and I still feel that I failed my friend at the time. More than a decade later, I went to Cairo as an exchange student, trying to learn Arabic. I don’t know if I have succeeded that, it is a very difficult language! Many of the people in the Netherlands who come from Morocco and are being blamed for not speaking proper Dutch, speak French, Berber, Moroccan-Arabic and very often some Spanish as well. It’s a struggle, I tell you, to learn Arabic. Anyway, I encountered a similar phenomena. The religion of the other was really a reason to be concerned. My mum didn’t want me to go; she said ‘you cannot go there. You know, as a Western woman, tall Western woman going to an Islamic city, it will be too dangerous.’ 

I was in Egypt during the nineties. Egypt has known about terrorism attacks long before 9/11, 7/7 or the murder of Theo Van Gogh in the Netherlands. They suffered, big time. And, yes, there were a lot of things which I was critical of when I lived in the Arab world. Reading the Arab human development reports, they sum it up very precisely; there is still a lack of freedom, there’s a lack of knowledge and a lack of participation of women is really worrying in those societies. The question though is, are those wrongs really connected to Islam? 

My friends, like Douglas, would say yes it is, a lot of my friends in the Netherlands say so as well. And they warn me not to be naive. They say that the danger now is among us, like an Islamic Trojan horse. I wonder though, and this would be a question for me to Douglas, what do we do with the people who don’t want to adhere to your ideas of enlightenment? Do we send them away? What do we do? Do we re-educate them? For me, this is a question. And of course, a lot of things happened over the past decade, they have already been mentioned, 9/11, the murder of Theo Van Gogh in my country. 

I would like to look at a more grass root level, I’m always asked, when people hear that I’ve lived in the Arab world, ‘Aren’t you afraid that there will be Islamisation in our own society? Look at all these girls, wearing headscarves…' Well I see colourful headscarves in the audience tonight as well, people tell me that these girls are a problem because they might not speak proper English or proper Dutch. I’m very happy that they’re around me because there are a lot of jobs in my country which couldn’t be done if they weren’t in a lecture theatre, and many many places. 

So, I’m wondering, are we actually addicted to our own stereotypes? This is the impression I get at airport bookstores, when I watch TV, over and over again we hear the same warning; while we’re sleeping Europe will turn into a certain Eurabia, Islam is about to take over. I believe that this one-sided, one-dimensional story is really failing Muslims in Europe miserably. 

I’m a regular speaker in the Netherlands about Islam, about my experiences in the Arab world and I sense a genuine curiosity among the general people in the Netherlands, not to believe what Geert Wilders says about Islam, not to believe what Douglas Murray just said about Islam. They want to know the other story. And yes, you’ve all heard about Ayaan Hirsi Ali I’m sure, and yes, she was a pioneer. I admire her for her fight against female genital mutilation, although of course I know this wasn’t an Islamic threat. 

But the other people, Ahmed Abu Taleb, the Barack Obama of the Netherlands, the mayor in Rotterdam, Famila, a female lawyer wearing a headscarf, she got on the front cover of TIME magazine. And my best, er, example would be Ibrahim Afellay, he’s a soccer player, and I wish he would score the winning goal at the world championship. I’m sure that he would be a hundred percent one of us.

You know as an eight year old girl I could claim being an innocent bystander, and thank god that the Catholic/Protestant divide in the Netherlands is no longer as strong as it was in my youth. But this difference between believers and non-believers, Muslims and non-Muslims is still there. I am inspired by people who dare to dream, that we can step over our own fears, that we don’t have to remain silent if others around us are excluded because of the colour of religion. And I believe that we would definitely fail Muslims in Europe, but even, not only Muslims, every single citizen in Europe if we continue to judge people on the basis of the colour of their skin, the colour of religion and not by the stature of their character. Thank you. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Thank you very much Petra Stienen. Now our final speaker, arguing against the motion is Flemming Rose, the Danish journalist. He’s the opinion and culture editor of Jyllands-Posten which is Denmark’s biggest newspaper. And, it was he, of course, who commissioned those very controversial cartoons of the prophet Mohammed back in 2005 that sparked protests among Muslims right across the world. I see you’re in the launch pad Flemming Rose, your time starts now. 

FLEMMING ROSE

Thank you.

In fact, I’m not going to talk about cartoons tonight. I’ve done that for the past five years and I’m a little bit fed up with it. But I’m going to share with you my after thoughts after having lived that experience five years ago and still experiencing the, you know, the afterwaves of what happened. 

I caught myself, in fact, thinking that, Petra was, arguing against the motion because she spoke about Muslims as individuals and not as a group. And I have a problem with the motion because it speaks about European Muslims. As if Muslims in Europe constitute a coherent group. And, it presupposes that Europe is speaking to its Muslim population with one voice, and that’s not the case and this goes right to the heart of my disagreement with the motion. 

I don’t want to generalise and I don’t want to essentialise Muslims. In fact, I believe that every Muslim is, first and foremost, an individual endowed with certain rights and obligations. And, as this serves to my mind as the foundation of liberal democracies in Europe, this is a very important distinction and caveat when it comes to the phrasing of the motion. 

It means that the citizens of Europe, they enjoy certain rights, like freedom of expression, freedom of religion, equal treatment before the law and secular government. It also means that Muslims, as other Europeans, have the freedom to choose. But, unfortunately, within too many Muslim communities in Europe, European Muslims are not able to exercise the rights they are being granted by European governments and societies. And I see that as a big problem. So, on the one-hand, in a liberal democracy, you enjoy the right to freedom of expression, you enjoy the right to freedom of religion – which includes the right to leave your religion – you treat women and men equally but, at the same time, Muslims within their own communities, are not able to exercise that right. 

Just to give you one figure, every third Muslim of Germany, thinks that their fellow Muslim believers don’t have the right to change their religion. That’s not a small minority. It’s in fact a lot of people. And it’s controversial across Muslim communities in Europe to leave Islam. And you have ex-Muslims or dissenting Muslims, within their own communities, who are living in fear because they are being accused of apostasy – apostasy, according to Islamic law, being a capital crime. So, if a Muslim decides to leave this religion, he risks social exclusion, stigmatisation or maybe even worse. And it’s no coincidence that councils of ex-Muslims are being created across Europe. Have you heard about councils of ex-Christians or councils of ex-Buddhists or councils of ex-Hindus or councils of ex-atheists? 

No. And there is a reason for that. Let me also relay to you a short story that took place, or is taking place right across from Copenhagen in southern Sweden in the town of Malmo, a town of three hundred thousand people, where you now have a big Muslim community of forty thousand people. And a majority of them live within one housing project that is called Rosengard. Two years ago, the Swedish government commissioned a report on what was going on in terms of radicalisation inside the community. And they found that women of Muslim background were saying that they were enjoying fewer rights and less freedom within the Muslim community in Sweden than they used to enjoy living in the Middle East. I think that is a frightening example. They are forced to cover themselves when they go out, boys and girls are not allowed to play together, and a self-appointed Islamic thought police, watch every step these women take. 

So, I ask ‘who is failing its Muslim population?’ I don’t think it’s the European democracies. 

Okay, then I’m going to jump to my final point, which is about a concept that is framing this conversation about Islam and Muslims in Europe. And it’s the concept of Islamophobia, which I really think that we have to get rid of as soon as possible. It’s a constructed model, designed to protect Islam from criticism and it has nothing to do with protecting individual Muslims from discrimination – which, of course, we have to fight in the same way as we fight all other kind of bigotry and discrimination. 

I believe that Islamophobia, or the concept of Islamophobia, threatens freedom of expression and it trivialises the concept of racism because it conflates legitimate criticism of an ideology with racism – and these are two completely different notions, in fact, they are opposing. Muslims do not constitute a race. Europeans are free to join Islam and leave Islam as they wish. But with the help of the concept of Islamophobia, some people are trying to stigmatise legitimate criticism of Islam, and thereby they are undermining the notion of human rights. 

May I remind you that it is human beings who enjoy human rights, not religions, cultures and certain versions of history. 

And I do believe in the notion of universal human rights, and I think that this notion has served Europeans, Muslims and Non-Muslims well, one consequence being that the Muslim citizens of Europe in fact are enjoying more freedom and more rights than any Muslim in any Muslim majority country. So, I don’t believe the Europe is failing its Muslim population, as the motion claims. And therefore, ladies and gentlemen, I call upon you to vote against the motion. Thank you. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Flemming Rose, thank you very much. So, you’ve heard all our speakers and we’re going to hear some points, comments, questions now from our audience here. But, before we do that, remember I told you that our audience were polled on this motion as they were coming in, before they heard our speakers, and I’m going to give you that result. This is how our audience here in Cadogan Hall in Central London have voted. 

For the motion ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’. Two hundred and thirty seven. Two three seven for the motion. Against the motion, two hundred and twenty, two two zero, and the don’t knows were two hundred and eighteen, two one eight. 

So this is so exciting because it means, audience, panel, there’s a lot to play for, really at the moment as things stand it seems like a bit of a draw. So let’s see if, as things progress, that will change and, incidentally just before I carry on, I should say you can download a free briefing on the issues being debated here today if you want to. You can go to www.intelligencesquared.com and just follow the instructions. Alright. So, let’s here some brief comments please, and questions from our audience, and again if you could stand when you speak and say who you are and your organisation if relevant. Gentleman there standing with the newspaper caught my eye. There you are. 

MAN 8 IN AUDIENCE

My name is (unclear) and I wish to point out to the panel, that when the Arabs, Muslims first went to Jerusalem, they entered the city without harming any Jews or Christians who then lived there. In one thousand ninety nine, the King sent Princes of Christian Europe, took the Holy City and slaughtered each child, woman, man, Jew, Christian, and Muslim. Now I bring this to your panel’s attention because history shows that Christian Europe has never tolerated another system of belief or faith to live within its midst. Unless it was ruled by a people outside-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

That was fine, we’ve gone back to ten ninety nine with you. Thank you. That’s sufficient. Let’s go to the back there. 

MAN 9 IN AUDIENCE

My name’s (unclear) from an organisation called Century. Two very quick questions. You’ve accused people of essentialising Islam, with which I agree, but, haven’t we had an essentialising of Europe massively as if you’ve got Europe over here, this entity over here and it’s looking at Muslims over there. So essentially it’s part of the discourse that’s been put forward. Especially when looking at Europe and how different France and Britain is, politically, intellectually, culturally, it’s perspective on Muslims, it’s perspective on policies dealing with Muslims etcetera. It’s massively disparate. And the other thing which is just a quick question to Petra, which was, these Hijabi women that come and do jobs for you, could you just clarify what you meant by, what jobs they do for you that you wouldn’t normally? I was just confused. 

PETRA STIENEN

What was the question? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

The question was ‘What do Hijabi women, women wearing the Hijab, do for you?’ 

PETRA STIENEN

Well one of my best friends, she’s a divorce lawyer, she’s basically warning Muslim women before they get married to have it really well arranged because even in Islam and in Islamic groups marriages end up in divorces. So she’s good for women’s rights. I think that if I understood Douglas correctly, also in his reading, that many of the nurses taking care of our parents in hospitals, if they don’t adhere to his version of what civil society and citizenship is that they should leave and so our parents cannot be taken care of any longer in hospitals. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Okay, the lady there and I would like a greater diversity of opinions from this audience please, you know, really if I could. Thank you. 

WOMAN 3 IN AUDIENCE

Hi (unclear). I have one question for the opposition, although most in this hall would agree that the human rights that are accorded to all of our citizens, Muslim and non-Muslim, are greater than those in the Arab nations, do you think that we have failed Muslims by allowing the language of Islam as ‘against us’, to propagate on and on particularly since 9/11 but even before that, and therefore allow our own Muslims within our own countries to feel as if they are part of the enemy rather than part of our own countries. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, I want to take very quick ones. Okay this lady here. 

WOMAN 4 IN AUDIENCE

Okay, my name is (unclear) Khan. I just want to make two quick comments. I just want to make a quick comment to the throwaway comments made by Douglas Murray about Muslim women and Islam and the way it treats women, and I think that Muslim women are quite capable of speaking for themselves, and I think the sort of myths people like you put in the public arena, and I’ve heard other similar arguments from BNP and all that kind of stuff, they think it justifies their argument by saying well, Islam treats fifty per cent of its population in a really derogatory and whatever way that you like to explain it. And I think it’s an outrageous abuse of the issue of Muslim women and yes, there may be some Muslim women who have problems, as much as there are white, English people who have problems. But there’s no way that they could be a justification for people like yourself to say, in a very ill-informed way, that Islam perpetuates this treatment of Muslim women. 

And just one other comment I’d like to make is, on the issue of democracy. Britain has a great history of social movements, of tackling the establishment, and for social change, social policy for a whole range of different people in its own history. If we, as Muslims, are asking for our rights like other minorities, it’s part of the indigenous history of this country, and therefore we have a right to stand up and show our feelings of alienation and marginalisation if that is happening. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Okay. That gentleman there. Is it, yep. Really keep it short, if you would. 

MAN 10 IN AUDIENCE

Very short. My name’s Mike (unclear). Surely it’s Islamic countries, and nations and the religion that are letting down many Muslims. The lack of correct investment in education, social justice and welfare in their own countries which has caused so much social migration to Europe, which wouldn’t otherwise have happened. Also, Islamic scholars contributed so much, we’re told, thirteen hundred years ago. But surely, the lack of contribution to education and ability, especially of women, of freedom, has stopped them growing and contributing to Europe as much as they could. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Let’s just take this young lady here with the headscarf, and then we’ll come to our panel, or maybe just one more there and then we’ll come to our panel. 

WOMAN 5 IN AUDIENCE

Ah, thank you. My name’s (unclear) from Muslim Leaders of the Future. I just have a comment. I’m a British female. I love this country and I give to this country. Now you’re calling me a problem, I don’t think I am, I think you are. Erm. Second point is, as a Muslim female, my parents might not let me go somewhere late at night because people are racist to me. They tell me to go back home and they hurt me. I’ve got hit by two white guys and they laughed at me ‘cause I’m a ‘scarfy’. Last point is to Mr Flemming. About the point where you said about changing the religion. Every person has the right to. No one says anything about that, but if you had a daughter or a son that wanted to become a Muslim, would you be happy about that? I don’t think so. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Well, let’s see. Why don’t you just address that. Would you mind if, I don’t know if you have children, but indeed would you mind if they became Muslim converts? 

FLEMMING ROSE

I mean it’s their choice. And, I can tell you I am... 

ZEINAB BADAWI

But that wasn’t what she asked. Would you mind? She said would you mind? 

FLEMMING ROSE

No, no I wouldn’t. Of course not. I mean I am married to an immigrant myself who comes from another community than the one I come from, so in fact I have been living, you know, this kind of experience for the past thirty years. And, yes, there were some members of my family who were quite critical about that, but it was my choice. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Hypothetically speaking, Douglas Murray, what would you say to that lady? 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

What I get up to you can’t have children, so it’s a real hypothetical. No, of course it wouldn’t bother me. I mean, I would hope that if somebody has access -- look, what Flemming and I are arguing for is that people have the right to access all of the kinds of opinions, all of the knowledge, that they can. That means, among other things, having for instance access to all of the criticism that should be written of the Koran and of Islam. And, if they weigh up after knowing all these things and having access to all of them that they would like to become Muslim, I don’t have a problem with that. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright, good you answered the question. Petra? 

PETRA STIENEN

Well the most popular boys name in Amsterdam these days is Mohammed. You would say, well is that a problem. Well, I think for most of the parents calling their son Mohammed it wasn’t, but for the Mohammeds themselves it is. 

When my daughter was born in ’98, I called her (unclear) which is the Arabic name for Pleiades because I felt that she needed to have a present of the rest of her life. After 9/11 people asked me whether I had regretted giving her an Arabic name. And, I felt sorry for the person who asked that question-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

So what’s the point you’re making? That there is prejudice against-- 

PETRA STIENEN

No the point I’m making is, and I think it’s the point the lady is making as well, that the fact that people are called Mohammed is probably in the perception of many putting them at a disadvantage, and of course I totally disagree. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Okay. I want to get some response to what we heard from some of the comments that our audience made. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

I just want to make a comment one of the cases that Petra made which was about, Ahmed Abu Taleb, a very distinguished public figure in Holland. What you failed to mention when you mention as a great success story of the Netherlands, which I agree he is, is that after the murder of Theo Van Gogh in 2004, he had to go under twenty-four hour protection because his name was found on a hit list of a radical cell nearby. We cannot simply take, Petra, the terrific success stories and ignore things like that. It is no small thing that a Muslim politician who speaks out should be targeted for assassination in his home country of the Netherlands. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Okay. Well, yeah. Tariq Ramadan. We get the point. Yeah, Tariq Ramadan. 

TARIQ RAMADAN

Well, er, once again, I think that you are taking one story, and then building-- 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

(mutters) 

TARIQ RAMADAN

--No, it is, and many Muslims around the world and in the Netherlands were against that, and attacked the small groups that were saying this, and this is the case today in Europe. This, the discourse that you have, is helping to nurture this sense of alienation and to not let Muslims feel that they are at home. And out of the questions that we got from here, people are saying we are welcome here, in their own country -- I’m sorry, I am at home. I’m at home. What are you talking about? 

Talk to us, or talk to me as a fellow European. And not as someone who is an outsider infiltrating the freedom of expression and using this. This is one. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Can I come back on this? 

TARIQ RAMADAN

Let me finish. No. So, there are two things here which, I wanted to say. So this is one thing which is important: when you are saying that the great majority of the Muslims are not happy with Muslims changing their religion, you are right. But there are two things here. There are rules, and you have scholars saying that this is possible. You also have to mention this. Now the feeling that we are not happy is something. To accept it and not to go for violence is something else. So you are asked about the feeling and you should be free to say ‘I don’t like it.’ But ‘don’t like it’ doesn’t mean ‘I’m going to kill him’. 

This is second. The third one, let me finish, the third one: you are speaking about Islamophobia and racism, to be a black man or black woman is a race, you should know that in scientific terms race doesn’t exist. So when you are speaking about racism or Islamophobia, we are saying that sometimes, some Muslims are targeted because of the very fact that they are Muslims. You and me, we should come together and say in the name of our common values we do not accept that. But, I will be with you and with all the people who say, this doesn’t mean that you cannot accept Muslims or Islam to be an open subject to be criticised and questioned. This is something, but don’t tell us that there is nothing like racism today. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, you’ve had your say there, with lots of points, Douglas, okay, respond. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

One very quick point Tariq, we have this debate about every year or so and I don’t think either of us have moved all that much. 

TARIQ RAMADAN

You don’t learn from me! 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

But Tariq, every time we meet you talk about this. You say ‘I’m a European’. That’s fine. And, no, I’m not saying you’re not a European, but I would appreciate the following, which is that don’t come to this hall and tell this hall that you’re a European, and go to another and talk to an Islamic audience as Islamic brothers, because that is what you have spent your career doing. 

TARIQ RAMADAN

(Unclear) 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Douglas... Douglas... (unclear) 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Speaking... Speaking from. Let me finish this. Let me finish this. Let me finish this. Let me finish this. But if anyone wants to see the book of this, Caroline Fourest... 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Douglas... Douglas... 

TARIQ RAMADAN

Oooh, look at that, look at that. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

...has written a terrific book, ‘The Doublespeak of Tariq Ramadan’ 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Douglas... Douglas... Douglas 

TARIQ RAMADAN

Is that fair? 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Let me answer this. 

TARIQ RAMADAN

Is that fair? 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Tariq comes here one day and says ‘we fellow Europeans, we all speak to each other as fellow Europeans’ and another he speaks to a Muslim audience and says ‘we as Muslims’ – which is it Tariq? Which is it? 

PETRA STIENEN

What’s the difference? 

TARIQ RAMADAN

I’m a Muslim. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

You can’t pretend you have two identities, you can’t just say you-- 

TARIQ RAMADAN

No, you know what-- 

PETRA STIENEN

Can I just say something about that? 

TARIQ RAMADAN

But you are, you are my-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, you two, just a minute, we get your point. Let’s see, I mean Flemming and then Petra, and then I want to check, yeah. Flemming-- 

FLEMMING ROSE

Okay, I mean, I agree, and I said that in my, remarks, that Muslims are being discriminated against and they are objects of bigotry. But I resist the notion that Islam is a race. Whether race exists or not, it has something to do wi-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Nobody’s said it is, you didn’t say that. Yeah, but hang on, who said that? [Mr Rose indicates Mr Ramadan] No he didn’t, he didn’t say that. 

FLEMMING ROSE

Tariq said that race doesn’t exist. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

He said racism exists. 

FLEMMING ROSE

Okay, okay, then I misunderstood, but— 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Yeah, but on this point, on this specific point. Can Tariq Ramadan be Muslim and European? And is there a problem with standing with Muslims and saying I’m a fellow Muslim, but also being European? Douglas seems to have a problem with that. 

FLEMMING ROSE

Of, of course not, of course not. But-- 

FLEMMING ROSE

Okay, I’m not finished, I’m not finished 

ZEINAB BADAWI

No. 

FLEMMING ROSE

Islam is not a race. And why is this important? Because if it’s race you don’t have a chance to change it. I mean, communists were also discriminated against during the Cold War but that’s also an ideology, although another kind of ideology. So you have to insist that Islam is a set of ideas and you have the freedom to change, to leave, to criticise-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright, okay 

FLEMMING ROSE

--to ridicule and so on and so forth. And it’s very, very different, from racism. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

You have problems with freedom of speech and what you’ve encountered amongst some Muslims, is what you’re saying, yeah? 

FLEMMING ROSE

Yes. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, Petra. On this question of identity I think, was the key one. 

PETRA STIENEN

Well I think. Well, I mean it almost seems as if the only good Muslim would be an ex-Muslim. And-- 

FLEMMING ROSE

(Unclear) 

PETRA STIENEN

And so for me, how enlightened are we if we only welcome people who are like us? I mean like you and me, I mean can we actually accept people who think differently? I think this is when our values are really tested. And, of course, when people are thinking differently and don’t want to change religion that’s also a universal human right. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. But Petra, what about one of the questions that we had from the floor, somebody expressed the view that women have said that they enjoy more freedom in the Middle East than they do actually when they come to Europe, which is kind of slightly counter-- 

PETRA STIENEN

Well you know, I am so touched when fifty-plus white male in my country are concerned about women’s rights among Muslim groups. Seriously. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Alright, well (unclear) 

PETRA STIENEN

No, because we in the Netherlands, we have a political party which is in parliament, which doesn’t allow women to run for office, and I don’t hear the same voices about this party as I hear about Muslim women. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Tariq Ramadan, I do want to ask about women and Islam, because this is something that we’ve had some contributions from the floor on, women wearing their veils and so on. This is something which does exercise a great deal of debate. The fact that a lot of people feel that you can’t be a Muslim woman and enjoy certain freedoms. How do you address that? 

TARIQ RAMADAN

I think that we have to acknowledge the fact that there are problems but we also have to acknowledge the fact that things are evolving. There are Muslim women in Europe today who are leaders and coming in with new interpretations. When it comes, for example, to something which is very simple: the headscarf. It’s against Islam to impose it, it’s against human rights to impose to take it off. This should be the point. And this is why we should be in agreement. 

Second point, we had campaigns in Europe against forced marriages. And then when it comes to anything that has to do with reading the text, being able to come and to get a sense of autonomy for women, this is happening. So, the only point is that when we wear the headscarf it’s as if in Europe -- we cannot generalise because in some countries it’s much more difficult than others -- I would say that, in some countries you wear the headscarf, by definition, you can’t be a free Muslim woman because of the way you dress. I think it’s wrong. Let the people decide and let them speak for themselves. And listen, listen because sometimes they speak and no one is listening. 

FLEMMING ROSE

No, I have a quick question to Tariq. What will you do if you find out a woman is not wearing that dress by her own choice. What will your opinion be? 

TARIQ RAMADAN

It happened, at least now in my mind there are two who asked me about that fact, I don’t want to wear it and this is imposed by my father and, once, by my mother. I said resist. Don’t accept something which is against your freedom because it has to be your choice and it’s an act of faith. So, for the dignity of Muslims, you have to resist. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. I mean there’s a big debate at the moment in Europe isn’t there, in France in particular, about the niqab, the full face veil, and even people like Rachida Dati, the former French Cabinet minister, has said that she is opposed to that. But, Douglas I want to ask you, you heard some of the people from the floor there, the woman complaining about attacks on her because she’s described as a ‘scarfy’, because she wears a head veil. I mean that is something that you would regret, I mean that doesn’t promote social cohesion does it? 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Of course, of course. Nobody, nobody, nobody thinks that any physical attacks or any such thing could be a good thing to happen. Of course not. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Do you understand the question? She’s talking about prejudice there. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Prejudice exists in society. Let’s just be absolutely clear this is (unclear) audience. Prejudice undoubtedly exists in society. It exists across racial groups, including from minorities to other minorities after all, which is one of the things we see increasingly in Britain these days. And it is also the case, that people in particularly, famously lower socioeconomic groups, are likely to feel hatred for other groups. That is one of the things that has to be tackled, and everyone, I think in this hall, I’m sure, we’re in agreement that that should be tackled. 

But do not mix up, as Flemming mentioned, do not mix up somebody, a thug, a racist and so on, attacking somebody in the street, with the right of Flemming and me to say what we see in the Koran, what we think of Mohammed and maybe even asserting our right to say so. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, alright. 

We’ve only got a few more minutes and I want to take more contributions from the floor, and please do try and make your comments relevant to this motion, which is ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’. And you can see how many hands have gone up, if you’re very disciplined I can go through all of you. So please don’t hog the microphone, okay? Really, don’t. Alright, the gentleman here. 

MAN 11 IN AUDIENCE

Thank you. I think part of the issue here is that, at the point where Europe is becoming increasingly secular, there’s a group of people who have a tenacious belief in God and I just wonder whether or not if we had sixteen million Evangelical Americans move here, we’d feel exactly the same about that. I don’t think it’s anything to do with race. It’s-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, thank you. The lady behind you. 

WOMAN 6 IN AUDIENCE

Hi, I’m Rabbi Debbie Young Summers from West London Synagogue. I’d like to think about action and how we move forward from today. I’d like to ask each of the panellists, if they had three things that they could change to challenge the challenges they’ve spoken of today what would they be? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. Let’s take some from upstairs. 

MAN 12 IN AUDIENCE

Erm, hello, hi. I’m Abdul (unclear), from the PMGF. My point was-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Can you tell us what the PMGF is please sir? 

MAN 12 IN AUDIENCE

It’s the Prime Minister’s Global Fellowship. 

Sort of just going back to the motion, I was just going to say, the biggest point for me is double standards. I think European double standards is the biggest problem. I mean, you talk of freedom of expression and yet you, kind of, compromise it through the banning of minarets. But the point is, okay, people voted for it, fair enough, but the point is you shouldn’t compromise, you shouldn’t give people…you can discuss taxes, you can discuss anything but freedom of expression. That is not something that is up for tax. And it’s just double standards that the West holds that. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Right, okay. You’re referring to that referendum in Switzerland? About-- 

MAN 12 IN AUDIENCE

And quite a lot of them. Like the one in France banning burqas. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright, okay. Gentleman there. 

MAN 13 IN AUDIENCE

Thank you. My name’s Henry Hogger, I’m a former British Diplomat in the Arab world. I worked, until fairly recently, for something called the Muslim West Facts Project which is an exercise to publicise the findings of some Gallup polling on Muslim opinion in Europe, which an earlier questioner referred to. One of the most striking features I think is that in Britain, France and Germany, Muslims, when asked for how strongly they feel attached to the country that they live in, on the whole, gave stronger answers of loyalty than did the public as a whole in those three countries. It seems to me that that’s a strong and positive reason for arguing against the motion ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’ but not for the reasons which I fear our speakers against the motion have been giving, which rather incline to blame Islam and Muslims themselves for the problem. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, thank you. A brief comment from you. 

MAN 14 IN AUDIENCE

Yes. Hello, hello. My name’s Jacob Burgess and I come from Worthing. I would just like to point out that I have never met Tariq Ramadan in my life but as a fellow Muslim, I am his brother. Just in the way that a Mason might be a brother of another Mason, or a Jew may be a brother of another Jew. It doesn’t stop me being European, doesn’t stop me being British. Thank you very much 

WOMAN 7 IN AUDIENCE

Hello, my name is Camilla (unclear) and I think we have an issue of identity here. Most of you consider Muslims and non-Muslims as labels which are self explanatory. And I think that certain attitudes and beliefs cannot be blamed on Islam and you are failing to see that even within the Muslim society there are some different shifts and currents. And for many Muslims, their religious affiliation is just part of their identity and not the only thing that can categorise or pigeon-hole them. And the same refers to non-Muslims. And (unclear) wrote in his brilliant book on identity, that you can read hundreds of books on Islam and still not be able to understand terrorism, but you can read just one book on colonialism and post-colonialism and you understand quite a lot. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Thank you. 

MAN 15 IN AUDIENCE

I’m Stephen Griffiths. I’m a Church of England vicar, and used to work in the Middle East, with Henry Hogger. I do a lot of work with Christians who come out from the Middle East, sometimes due to persecution, and British policy is frequently behind that. And so the world is very complicated. But what worries me is that a lot of the things that people are worried about, about Muslim immigrants into Europe, are very hard attitudes that a lot of the Christians also have. And I think if you are, for instance, from a gay minority in a lot of those communities, it is very, very worrying. And therefore, we need to be thinking slightly bigger than just this Muslim thing, but it is about a wider cultural problem. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright, okay. The lady now, wearing the hat. 

WOMAN 8 IN AUDIENCE

Hi, I’m (unclear) from (unclear). Just a comment to you about what you said about women. I think, first of all that’s really misleading because you’re getting culture confused with religion and if you just take a moment to look into the Koran, you’ll see the Koran gave women rights long before women in Europe started burning bras for their own rights, and you’ll also see that actually, in the Koran, it encourages women to seek education, it protects us from violence and it actually gives us rights in marriage. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Okay. 

WOMAN 8 IN AUDIENCE

So, you’re very wrong. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Can I excite anybody in the audience, who perhaps agrees against the motion ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’? Anybody here? Okay, gentleman there. One here and one there, okay. 

MAN 16 IN AUDIENCE

Sorry, it’s Peter Whittle from the New Culture Forum. The speakers for the motion, have been suggesting that the other speakers have been taking, if you like, small minorities, whatever, and extrapolating them out as being mainstream opinion, Muslim opinion. The fact is that the biggest survey done of Muslim opinion by policy exchange called ‘Living apart together’, showed that forty percent of Muslims wanted sharia law in this country. And being a gay man, far more important, or actually just as important should I say, is that seventy two per cent of young Muslims – aged between sixteen and twenty four – thought that homosexuality should be re-criminalised. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. Alright. 

MAN 16 IN AUDIENCE

Now, the reason that that is a threat -- no one is suggesting that they are actually going out and wanting to put bombs under things, not those people -- but the reason it’s a threat is that the Muslim population is growing exponentially in Europe. About ten times greater than any other, so consequently, that could become a major social pressure. And the problem is that we have a set of elites in our own countries, in European countries, who are just simply too weak to stand up for very hard won rights. So what I’m saying to you is that, although it is not right to say obviously that a vast majority of Muslims espouse violence, ‘cause obviously they don’t, the certainly espouse very, very difficult opinions. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

...okay, we get the point. I should just say though I don’t know what your survey was about the Muslim population increasing so dramatically because there has been some doubt about the figures, people saying it’s going to jump to twenty per cent in Britain by 2050. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

BBC 

ZEINAB BADAWI

No, BBC did actually dispute some of that, there was a long thing about, ‘at the moment in Britain the percentage is about five per cent and it would jump to twenty per cent by 2050’. But actually it was seen as not being a hundred percent accurate. Anyway, erm, yes, another voice against the motion please? No? Against the motion? Just to get a bit of balance, yep. Is it you? Yep. Over there. 

MAN 17 IN AUDIENCE

Will be more of a question. Er, arguably the United States has been a lot more successful than Europe in integrating and assimilating different cultures, racial minorities, religious minorities. The question to the panel is, what do you think the US has done differently and what can we learn from it? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Oh right. Well, that’s going to be a long one. But we’re talking about Europe so we’ll skate over that one, panel. Okay, we’re talking about Europe, get the point. Yep. 

WOMAN 9 IN AUDIENCE

Hi Nashla Sorgi(unclear) from (unclear). It seems, possibly, listening to Petra and her talking about negative stereotypes and how possibly that radicalisation is a backlash of that. Is that justifiable, that it’s just bad stereotypes? Is that all that people need to be able to voice their opinions? Is that all that fuels radicalism? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. I think we understood that. Okay, another one against the motion ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’? Nope. Not sure, wavering. Alright, let’s see. 

MAN 18 IN AUDIENCE

Hi, Roy(unclear) from BrightStar Foundation. I’m not so much against the motion, but against the fact that Tariq and Petra are here. ‘Cause I don’t think they need to be here because the arguments from Douglas and his right hand man are flawed because their arguments are freedom of speech, freedom of religion, equal op-opportunity and treatment, are actually the same arguments for the motion. And so Douglas, you don’t need to take your trousers off because you have no legs to stand on. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay, let me go upstairs, yep. Brief comment. 

MAN 19 IN AUDIENCE

Yeah. Alex Kellerhurst(unclear), I’ll name check the PMGF, I was on that one. A key point that hasn’t, I don’t think, been raised enough is how -- Douglas made a point earlier about seventeen million being the Muslim migration to Europe in recent times -- that has clashed with the increasing secularisation of all of Europe. I don’t think it’s necessarily a Muslims v Europe thing, I think it’s more so a Europe v religion generally thing. The only problem is, as migrants always have whether you look at Catholics and Italians in America, they always rally around a point of religion. It’s always been like that, historically. However, now we’ve got the issue of that point contrasting with the secularisation issue, which has caused a huge problem because people are now juggling between faith and secularisation. Maybe the two aren’t compatible? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright, okay. Thanks. 

MAN 20 IN AUDIENCE

I’m Oliver Kamm, I’m a leading writer for The Times. Immediately after the Swiss vote to ban the construction of minarets, my newspaper published a leading article condemning the vote as inflammatory and a violation of religious liberty. But beyond religious liberty, beyond your, sir, right to freedom of association and worship, I cannot understand what possible claim your deeply held religious beliefs have on the rest of society. They are, in my judgement, flawed and incoherent and wrong. Why do I have any reason to respect them, why do they belong in civic society? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. Just some brief ones now. Yep. You’ve spoken. 

MAN 21 IN AUDIENCE

Hello everybody, ah, my name’s (unclear), I’m a charity worker in South East London. Ah, like Petra I was brought up a Catholic in Ireland. Later on in life I moved to England and converted to Islam, and I was ostracised by a lot of my friends. As a practising Muslim, it was 2003, a few years later I came out as gay and I was ostracised by a lot of my Muslim peers. And then I became very isolated, and I was lonely, I didn’t know where I was. And I think the question today really is, it isn’t ‘is Europe failing its Muslims’, but ‘are we all failing one another?’ And that’s all that we should really look at. And I’m now in love with a lovely Muslim man, in a good relationship, so. Thanks very much. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

The chap behind you, and then these two and that’s it probably. We haven’t got time. Okay. Alright you haven’t got the microphone. Let’s go there, you’ve got the microphone, go on. 

WOMAN 10 IN AUDIENCE

Hi, I’m Caroline, I’m just a human being, I don’t represent any sort of party or community or anything like that. 

Erm, I was just wondering what it would take for Europe to stop failing it’s Muslims? So, when would a day come when we’re not failing our Muslims and we’re all seen as equal and we can all get on well? Erm, also with identity, I’m actually Christian, my family are from India, my sister-in-law is Muslim, I love the country that I live in, I love the country that gives me the culture that I come from, you know. I respect all religions, and as far as I’m concerned they’ve always shown respect for me and I don’t think that it’s fair that we could judge an entire religion by a few fringe people, because if you count the Muslim community it’s humongous-- 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Thanks. Lady in the red suit 

WOMAN 11 IN AUDIENCE

Hi, my name is Elizabeth Kendal. I’m a research fellow in Arabic and Islamic studies at Oxford. I came in here sitting on the fence actually, but I’m now thinking that I’m going against the motion because no one has really come up with any policy or any recommendation for addressing the issue of Europe failing its Muslims. I don’t really understand why we’re blaming Europe in general and not Europe’s media or Europe’s politicians. Is there one specific, is there one specific policy that Tariq Ramadan could recommend? Let’s narrow it down to the UK? 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Okay. Well thank you. You’ve had the gauntlet thrown down at you there, panel. People wanting something concrete, one of our earlier audience members said ‘What three things would you change?’ So, I’m going to allow you to perhaps respond to some of those comments in your closing statements, speakers. But before -- while they’re doing that our audience are gonna be asked to vote again, to see if they have changed their mind, if they’ve jumped ship or whether perhaps the ‘undecideds’ have gone to one side or the other. And let me just tell you how to vote audience. If you are for the motion ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’, rip your ticket in half like this and put the black part in the box, you’ll see some people coming round giving you those. If you’re against the motion, put the ‘against’ in, and if you’re still not sure, then put the whole ticket in, alright. So while you’re doing that, you’ll also be able to hear our panel make their closing statements, and this time we’re going to do it in reverse order. So, who was last? Flemming. It was Flemming and then it would be Petra. 

Okay, so while the audience are voting, we’re going to hear our speakers again, and this time they’re going to talk in reverse order, while we’re just doing that process. And I will remind you how the audience voted at the beginning when we get the final results, just to see what shifts have occurred. So, Flemming Rose, Danish journalist who commissioned those controversial cartoons of the prophet Mohammed back in 2005, would you take the floor to make your closing statements. Oh, actually, why don’t you stay seated, keep you more comfortable. 

FLEMMING ROSE

And I save fifteen seconds. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Well, you’ve got about a minute-- 

FLEMMING ROSE

Okay. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

--or two. 

FLEMMING ROSE

I just want to take issue with one point being repeated on the other side. That we are just speaking about a few cases when it comes to discrimination against Muslims within their own communities and it’s only a former Muslim that is a good Muslim. In fact, it is going on across Europe and in Denmark we have a famous politician, Naser Khader, a Syrian-born Palestinian who is a believer. We have Samira Munir in Norway. We have Ahmed Abu Taleb, the mayor of Amsterdam and we have many, many more people who are being attacked, who need twenty four hours protection because they have spoken out against cultural and religious practices within their own communities so it’s just not a few minor cases. It’s a cross-European problem. 

I will speak against, what I would call, the racism of lower expectations towards Muslims. I think it’s a big, big problem that people apply a different standard to Muslims than they do to other groups in our society. And it was very, very clear during the cartoon crisis, when in fact those cartoons were not in any way transcending the limits of the kind of cartoons dealing with Christians and other religions. But we were saying, ‘no because you are Muslims, you should not live up to the same kind of standards’. What kind of image of the Muslim population in Europe lies behind this? I think it’s very discriminating and I would be very offended by this kind of treatment. I mean, by publishing these cartoons we said, you know, you are part of Europe, we are not expecting more of you, we are not expecting less of you but we are expecting exactly the same of you as of every other group in our society. And thereby we recognise you as Europeans and as Muslims and as integrated Europeans. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Petra Stienen, former Dutch diplomat, you heard some of the points that came from our floor so do incorporate some of those in your closing statement and the idea is to win over those ‘undecideds’ so that they back your position so make your case. 

PETRA STIENEN

Well, there was a gentleman above there, who asked us to mention three things which we could do. I think we should stop doing three things at first. I hear a lot of self-righteousness about the values in Europe, which somehow are for a certain group and not for another, sort of a sense of superiority that we in Europe have done it alright. And I think this sense of superiority leads to a sort of segregation in our society which I wouldn’t want to see for my daughter to live in. 

Now, the three positive things, and I don’t know whether that can be sort of related to policy, we’ll talk about that in another debate I suppose. I think that being curious of the other story, of other voices is really the first step to find common humanity among all the people here. And I have to commend all of you, for being here tonight because my point is that being an innocent bystander in these days is really not the answer. 

And, to the end, I think the magic word really is compassion. Compassion for the other, compassion for another story, compassion for difficulties dealing with those stories. So, I think that, if we want to be citizens of the twenty first century Europe, where we enjoy similar rights, civil rights, and, the question of the gentleman over there, I think one of the things we could have learned from the American experience is a civil rights movement. So I think, attention for civil rights in our schools, in our systems is really necessary. Thank you. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Douglas Murray, director of the Centre for Social Cohesion, the think tank which studies radicalism and extremism in Britain, your closing statements. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

Thank you all. First of all just to pick up on a couple of people, particularly women who’ve said about the terrific things Islam gives women in terms of rights. The first thing is, yes. In seventh century Arabia, some of this was progressive. In twenty first century Britain, it is not. And, you have to make that fundamental admission that the Koran is not a document for women’s rights in Europe in 2010. It is not. 

Secondly, secondly, somebody said, somebody said -- you always get this one – that it is as if this is a problem that Flemming and I and other people have with Muslims, no. Let me put it to you this way. If a Christian Evangelical movement from America say, were in Britain, and one person had carried out a terrorist attack, would we have a problem with it? Of course. Of course we would. And we would write books about it, and we would say things about it and we might even cartoon it. Yes, we would look at it, and the reason why people are criticising Islam is because Islam needs to be criticised and you have to own up to problems within Islam, within Islamic texts, and indeed when somebody says they act in the name of Islam, not completely ignoring it or thinking it’s not true. 

The other side have been very good this evening at pretending. Don’t talk about all the most obvious cases. Don’t talk about the blowing up of the Underground, or the toppling of the twin towers, as if you could just section off everything that is significant in the debate, and go on to the minority small things. No, these things are significant. If any other minority were to have people from it’s midst that behaved in this way, yes we would criticise that too. 

Thirdly, why is it that only Islamic societies and mosques in this country are places which teach and preach hatred of other minorities? Every single week in this country there are people on campuses who teach the murder of minorities. Last week it was somebody who called for the murder of apostates. The week before at another university, it was somebody who believes the Jews are fair game. This is not tolerable, it is not tolerable from Muslims, it is not tolerable from anyone else. You, I hope, would agree with me that any minority that engaged in such hatred and bigotry should be criticised. Don’t pretend that the cloak of Islam and Islamic belief and religious fervour means that people like us cannot say that people who call for the murder of minorities are not mainstream, are not acceptable and have to be critiqued. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. So, Tariq Ramadan, er, Professor of Contemporary Islamic Studies at Oxford University. Final word goes to you. Your closing statement incorporating some of the points raised by our audience. 

TARIQ RAMADAN

Yes, thank you for that and welcome to social cohesion. 

Let me say something because that’s true that with this motion it could be misleading, because I asked myself really, am I for or am I against when I got it first, why? Because I’m much more optimistic of what is coming and what we are facing now. So, there are common trends and this is what I was highlighting. Meaning, that we have a problem with the negative perception of Islam, what is said about Islam, the media coverage. With the perceptions that are quite negative and with the discourses, and by the way I’m not putting you in the same box. I really don’t. And I think that I’m not even essentialising people who may be against the motion because what you are saying is not exactly the same. There is a subtle way of opening it all for discussion in a way that everything is closed. It’s over already. So, I would say here that when we look at what is happening now, I am saying yes, now Europe is failing its Muslims, as something which is the global, the overall picture. 

Now with time, what is happening in Europe now is quite different, and this is what I call the silent revolution. When you look at what is going on at the grass roots level, with citizens that are European Muslims, and Muslim Europeans, and they are here and they are going to stay, and they are going now to do something which is not to talk about integration. They are all fed up with integrate. Now they contribute. Now they give. Now they built and this is it. 

So, to respond to what you said, I would agree with you that the feeling of the Muslim, that they are at home, but for the time being we still have to work. This is why I am saying yes we are failing our Muslims and we have to work together to change this perception and to change the reality, and to come to practical things that we should do. 

The first, I’m addressing here, and by the way you know, I can call you brother in humanity. I did it yesterday, I am going to do it today. I’m going now to tell you this, it’s not a problem for me to say to my brothers and sisters in humanity, in religion, and as citizens that we are brothers and sisters. If you have a problem with brotherhood is it’s not my problem. 

Just to come to one point, which is what we have first to do and which is very important if you want to change the situation is to work within the Muslim communities to get rid of the victim mentality. We have rights, we are citizens, let us stand up. This is one thing. The second thing is to teach history, because what we are talking about is the roots of Europe which show us that we are now forgetting about the common roots, the common values that we have. Let us teach this. 

The second thing is to stop Islamising all the problems that we have. We are dealing with unemployment, discrimination, let us speak about politics, let politicians come back to politics and not follow in the footsteps of what you are saying. And please, we have been talking about what doesn’t work, let us speak about what works at the grass roots level. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

While we’re waiting for that vote -- ‘cause a lot of the discussion has actually been about the merits or otherwise of Islam as a religion -- let me remind you the motion is ‘Is Europe is failing its Muslims’ and you’re against the motion. And can you just give us reasons why, one to five, it is. You’ve talked about freedom of speech, you’ve talked about a few things but why do you believe that Europe is not failing its Muslims? ‘Cause they have more rights here you said, than in their countries of origin? 

FLEMMING ROSE

Yes. Yes, yes. I mean, they can claim their rights and if they are not able to exercise their rights or if they are being discriminated against they can take people to court. And I think still that the key problem is that Europe is granting Muslims human rights. But within Muslim communities, some Muslims are not able to exercise those rights. And that is why it is, it is Muslim communities that are failing Muslims not Europe. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Okay. 

DOUGLAS MURRAY

(Unclear) To repeat the point I made earlier, Muslims here in Britain and in Europe, have a better chance of being Muslims here than they do in any Muslim country in the world ruled under Muslim law. A far better chance. You’ve got a far better chance in Europe of being a proper devout, decent Muslim. For instance, from a minority, you could be a Sunni or a Shia, it doesn’t matter. Try being a-one of these in an Islamic country that happens not to be behind that game. Try being all sorts of behaviour, all sorts of ways of worship that nobody has a problem with here. Nobody on this side of the debate is saying we have any problem with Muslim worship or devout Muslims or anything like this. But, there has to be some admission of the fact as we’ve said, Europe is actually for people of any faith and none, the best chance we’ve got going.

To not even concede that, to not even admit that might be the case, is extraordinarily blind. 

ZEINAB BADAWI

Alright. Let me give you the results. Now, so, let me remind you that before the debate as you in the audience here were coming in, 237 of you were for the motion. 220 were against. And the don’t knows were 218. 

This is how you voted after you’ve heard our panel make their presentations. You’ve also put your comments. So, after the debate for the motion ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’ only slightly gone up, 249. Two four nine. Against the motion, 346. Three four six. And. The don’t, the don’t knows have gone from 218 to 84. So ‘Europe is failing its Muslims’, against have won. Douglas Murray and Flemming Rose, congratulations to you. 

So, our. Our thanks to all our speakers, to the British Council for making this very important debate possible. To you here in the audience here in Cadogan Hall in Central London. Of course you at home who are watching. I’m going to go and celebrate with the winners and commiserate with the losers. From me, Zeinab Badawi, goodbye.